1
00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,480
foreign

2
00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,880
ER

3
00:00:13,799 --> 00:00:18,539
so

4
00:00:16,020 --> 00:00:20,580
Dana Scheider is a senior software

5
00:00:18,539 --> 00:00:23,220
engineer at Cash app hailing from

6
00:00:20,580 --> 00:00:26,100
Portland Oregon he currently lives in

7
00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:27,779
Melbourne Australia since 2016. Dana has

8
00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:30,060
been one of the core maintainers of

9
00:00:27,779 --> 00:00:31,520
cucumber he is particularly interested

10
00:00:30,060 --> 00:00:34,260
in testing and quality management

11
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:36,180
diversity and inclusion and improving

12
00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:39,360
processes within engineering

13
00:00:36,180 --> 00:00:41,160
organizations so this talk is titled in

14
00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:44,399
the long run where all dead and

15
00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:48,680
economists guide to techdat please give

16
00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:48,680
Dana a warm welcome

17
00:00:53,340 --> 00:00:57,600
hello pycon

18
00:00:55,079 --> 00:00:59,760
name is Dana Scheider my pronouns are

19
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:02,399
they and he and I'm so excited to see

20
00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:04,799
all of you here for my new talk in the

21
00:01:02,399 --> 00:01:07,320
long run we're all dead an economist's

22
00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:09,240
guide to Tech debt this is a pretty

23
00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:11,540
strong showing for right before lunch so

24
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:14,280
thank you all for coming

25
00:01:11,540 --> 00:01:17,100
currently I'm a senior engineer at Cash

26
00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:19,680
app but way back in 2010 I graduated

27
00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:21,240
from Portland State University with a

28
00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,640
degree in finance and extensive

29
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:25,380
coursework in economics so in that way

30
00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,600
you could say that this talk is the

31
00:01:25,380 --> 00:01:31,400
synthesis of my life's work other than

32
00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,400
the opera singing But I digress

33
00:01:31,619 --> 00:01:36,600
um this talk will be a post Keynesian

34
00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:39,420
analysis of macroeconomic forces driving

35
00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,100
adoption and impact of technical debt in

36
00:01:39,420 --> 00:01:43,900
the framework of the Minsky instability

37
00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:45,420
hypothesis you got that right

38
00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:47,640
[Music]

39
00:01:45,420 --> 00:01:49,560
um don't worry it's not on the test but

40
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:52,259
regardless hopefully it'll start to make

41
00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,939
sense over the next 20 minutes or so

42
00:01:52,259 --> 00:01:56,100
basically I'll be looking at technical

43
00:01:53,939 --> 00:01:59,220
debt in the context of the economic

44
00:01:56,100 --> 00:02:01,439
systems in which we all live and work

45
00:01:59,220 --> 00:02:03,960
see when the topic of tech deck comes up

46
00:02:01,439 --> 00:02:05,640
I see the blame game a lot is it

47
00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,500
developers or managers who are

48
00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,759
incompetent whose fault is this

49
00:02:07,500 --> 00:02:10,560
phenomenon

50
00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:12,660
however in this talk I argue that

51
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,459
excessive Tech debt is not brought on by

52
00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:17,700
incompetence on the part of developers

53
00:02:14,459 --> 00:02:20,040
or managers but by macroeconomic factors

54
00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:21,239
not controlled by developers or

55
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,860
management

56
00:02:21,239 --> 00:02:24,959
I'm going to make the case that

57
00:02:22,860 --> 00:02:27,300
organizations take on technical debt

58
00:02:24,959 --> 00:02:31,260
like other forms of debt because they

59
00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:33,599
are structurally forced to bear with me

60
00:02:31,260 --> 00:02:35,640
before I go any further I'd like to

61
00:02:33,599 --> 00:02:37,200
Define some of the key Concepts I'll be

62
00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:39,120
talking about in this talk there's going

63
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,739
to be a lot of information and I hope

64
00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:43,560
you're able to

65
00:02:40,739 --> 00:02:45,180
um to stay with me here

66
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,959
um but a few terms here Market

67
00:02:45,180 --> 00:02:51,599
participant I'll also be using the terms

68
00:02:48,959 --> 00:02:53,580
economic actor and unit and a market

69
00:02:51,599 --> 00:02:56,340
participant is just someone who

70
00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:58,800
participates in a market in any way so

71
00:02:56,340 --> 00:03:00,780
someone who's buying something someone

72
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,879
who's selling something an organization

73
00:03:00,780 --> 00:03:04,739
an individual all of these can be Market

74
00:03:02,879 --> 00:03:06,720
participants and that's deliberately

75
00:03:04,739 --> 00:03:09,060
vague

76
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,220
um risk aversion is another important

77
00:03:09,060 --> 00:03:14,220
concept here and that's the propensity

78
00:03:11,220 --> 00:03:17,580
of a given Market participant to avoid

79
00:03:14,220 --> 00:03:19,800
risk so a risk-averse entity is going to

80
00:03:17,580 --> 00:03:22,319
take on as little risk as possible while

81
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,120
a less risk-averse one might take on

82
00:03:22,319 --> 00:03:25,319
more risk

83
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,319
um

84
00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:30,480
finally the business cycle you may have

85
00:03:28,319 --> 00:03:34,680
heard this referred to as the boom bust

86
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:38,159
cycle and the boom bust cycle think dot

87
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,720
comboom.com bust the ups and downs of

88
00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:41,819
the economy

89
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:45,420
and finally the star of the show

90
00:03:41,819 --> 00:03:49,140
technical debt which I Define as

91
00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:52,080
outdated unmaintained untested and or

92
00:03:49,140 --> 00:03:55,379
and let's be real it's and undocumented

93
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:57,000
code or systems that often come from a

94
00:03:55,379 --> 00:04:00,900
strict prioritization of shipping

95
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:03,299
features so when we try to deliver

96
00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:06,000
things too fast that's when we cut

97
00:04:03,299 --> 00:04:06,780
corners on things

98
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,340
um

99
00:04:06,780 --> 00:04:10,500
okay so let's talk for a second about

100
00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:12,840
traditional economics I'd like you to

101
00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:15,900
close your eyes and if you took a an

102
00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:19,500
economics class in school or uni

103
00:04:15,900 --> 00:04:21,239
um go back to that class and you may

104
00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:24,120
remember learning that the Invisible

105
00:04:21,239 --> 00:04:27,979
Hand of the free market guides the

106
00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:27,979
market to a point of equilibrium

107
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,280
in the long run

108
00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:36,900
and these are true in some circumstances

109
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,300
the fact is there's a lot of fine print

110
00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:41,520
these are true in microeconomic

111
00:04:39,300 --> 00:04:43,500
situations first of all they're true in

112
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,360
situations of perfect competition

113
00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:48,300
they're

114
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:51,320
true in cases where all Market

115
00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:54,540
participants have equal power

116
00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,940
and so you can see how those things

117
00:04:54,540 --> 00:04:58,520
wouldn't necessarily be the case in the

118
00:04:56,940 --> 00:05:00,660
macro economy

119
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,280
and it's also built on the assumption

120
00:05:00,660 --> 00:05:05,639
that market participants are rational

121
00:05:02,280 --> 00:05:06,360
which I would argue they're not

122
00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:08,580
um

123
00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,259
so for more complex situations other

124
00:05:08,580 --> 00:05:12,780
rules apply

125
00:05:10,259 --> 00:05:15,120
enter English economist John Maynard

126
00:05:12,780 --> 00:05:17,580
Keynes Keynes lived during the Great

127
00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,380
Depression which began in 1929 and

128
00:05:17,580 --> 00:05:22,680
lasted about 10 years

129
00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:26,039
now if markets love equilibrium so much

130
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:29,039
explain what happened in October of 1929

131
00:05:26,039 --> 00:05:31,560
explain that crash and that's exactly

132
00:05:29,039 --> 00:05:35,160
what Keynes undertook to do

133
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,780
he found that that in the long run does

134
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,240
a lot of heavy lifting when they're

135
00:05:36,780 --> 00:05:41,039
suffering to be mitigated now the

136
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,600
soaring prophets of the Roaring Twenties

137
00:05:41,039 --> 00:05:45,780
didn't do much for the depression

138
00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,699
ravaged 30s Haynes believed that it was

139
00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:49,919
necessary for governments to take action

140
00:05:47,699 --> 00:05:52,080
in the immediate term to temper the

141
00:05:49,919 --> 00:05:55,199
business cycle even at the cost of

142
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,120
lesser Prosperity during booms after all

143
00:05:55,199 --> 00:06:01,280
as he pointed out

144
00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,280
in the long run we're all dead

145
00:06:01,740 --> 00:06:05,280
um

146
00:06:03,660 --> 00:06:07,740
in order to explain what Kane's ideas

147
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:10,320
have to do with tech debt I want to

148
00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:12,120
introduce the concept of Leverage there

149
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,160
are two recognized types of Leverage

150
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,860
financial leverage and operating

151
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,680
leverage I'm proposing a third type in

152
00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:21,300
addition technical leverage these three

153
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,280
types of Leverage seem quite different

154
00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:24,960
but there are some common elements

155
00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:26,340
between them that I'll talk about on the

156
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,460
next slide

157
00:06:26,340 --> 00:06:31,699
so financial leverage if you've learned

158
00:06:29,460 --> 00:06:34,860
about business at all you may know that

159
00:06:31,699 --> 00:06:38,280
businesses generate revenues and profits

160
00:06:34,860 --> 00:06:41,039
with assets if you don't have any assets

161
00:06:38,280 --> 00:06:43,740
then your ability to generate revenues

162
00:06:41,039 --> 00:06:46,199
is going to be extremely limited

163
00:06:43,740 --> 00:06:48,660
um those assets can be purchased either

164
00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:52,020
using equity which is investment from

165
00:06:48,660 --> 00:06:54,660
the owners of the company or with debt

166
00:06:52,020 --> 00:06:56,460
that's financial leverage the proportion

167
00:06:54,660 --> 00:06:57,740
of your assets that are financed with

168
00:06:56,460 --> 00:07:00,240
debt

169
00:06:57,740 --> 00:07:03,060
operating Leverage is the level of

170
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:05,220
investment in illiquid capital assets so

171
00:07:03,060 --> 00:07:07,440
assets that can't be sold for cash

172
00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:09,900
without taking a significant loss in

173
00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:13,100
value this is stuff like Machinery

174
00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:15,660
facilities factories that kind of thing

175
00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:17,360
and Technical leverage I'm defining as

176
00:07:15,660 --> 00:07:19,800
the extent to which an organization

177
00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,080
prioritizes adding features over

178
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,639
maintaining testing and documenting

179
00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,199
their systems

180
00:07:23,639 --> 00:07:27,240
so what are these three forms of

181
00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:29,780
Leverage have in common

182
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,780
well

183
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:36,419
all forms of Leverage represent risk to

184
00:07:32,819 --> 00:07:39,720
the economic actors that take them on

185
00:07:36,419 --> 00:07:42,080
now why does this happen well you may

186
00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:45,180
have heard the saying no risk no reward

187
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:47,780
and in this saying we're talking about

188
00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:52,680
what we call upside risk

189
00:07:47,780 --> 00:07:53,940
taking risks can result in higher gains

190
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,180
you know this might be the one that you

191
00:07:53,940 --> 00:07:59,160
strike it rich on so

192
00:07:57,180 --> 00:08:01,139
um the catch is that risk Works kind of

193
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,660
like a pendulum it's not quite that

194
00:08:01,139 --> 00:08:05,940
simple but we can visualize it that way

195
00:08:03,660 --> 00:08:07,500
and when a pendulum swings hard to one

196
00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:10,440
side it's going to swing hard to the

197
00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:12,180
other side and that's how risk works and

198
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:14,520
that's fundamentally how keynes's model

199
00:08:12,180 --> 00:08:15,599
of the economy works

200
00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,880
um

201
00:08:15,599 --> 00:08:19,979
now

202
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,500
it's that upside risk that drives

203
00:08:19,979 --> 00:08:26,340
companies to adopt all forms of Leverage

204
00:08:22,500 --> 00:08:28,500
and all forms of risk however I want to

205
00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:31,620
emphasize that it's not necessarily bad

206
00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:34,080
to take on risk in fact for a given

207
00:08:31,620 --> 00:08:37,680
entity it's often possible to calculate

208
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:39,899
roughly a an optimal amount of risk that

209
00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:42,200
that entity should take to reach its

210
00:08:39,899 --> 00:08:46,140
profit targets or to

211
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,940
achieve whatever it's trying to achieve

212
00:08:46,140 --> 00:08:49,860
so

213
00:08:47,940 --> 00:08:51,779
that's Leverage

214
00:08:49,860 --> 00:08:53,940
now at the beginning of this talk I said

215
00:08:51,779 --> 00:08:55,800
I would argue that organizations adopt

216
00:08:53,940 --> 00:08:57,180
Tech debt because they're structurally

217
00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,339
forced to

218
00:08:57,180 --> 00:09:01,800
I'm a big believer that extraordinary

219
00:08:59,339 --> 00:09:04,080
claims require extraordinary evidence so

220
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,880
to help you understand how this works I

221
00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,459
want to introduce the Minsky instability

222
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:10,980
hypothesis published in a white paper by

223
00:09:08,459 --> 00:09:12,420
post Keynesian Economist Hyman Minsky in

224
00:09:10,980 --> 00:09:14,760
1992.

225
00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:16,440
first I'll explain Minsky's Theory as he

226
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,600
proposed it pertaining mainly to

227
00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,360
financial leverage then I'll talk about

228
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:24,660
how it applies to technology

229
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:27,779
so Minsky divided economic actors into

230
00:09:24,660 --> 00:09:30,959
three different categories hedge units

231
00:09:27,779 --> 00:09:34,140
speculative units and Ponzi units

232
00:09:30,959 --> 00:09:36,240
a hedge unit is defined as a an actor

233
00:09:34,140 --> 00:09:40,200
who can service their debt obligations

234
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,760
using only their own cash flows so these

235
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,580
are organizations that are financially

236
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:47,040
healthy that have enough revenue and

237
00:09:44,580 --> 00:09:49,860
enough profits to cover

238
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:52,140
any debt that they take on now they may

239
00:09:49,860 --> 00:09:55,200
not do that they may choose to take on

240
00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:57,180
more debt instead but the defining

241
00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,220
characteristic is that they do have the

242
00:09:57,180 --> 00:10:01,380
ability to pay down all their debt with

243
00:09:59,220 --> 00:10:03,600
their own cash flows

244
00:10:01,380 --> 00:10:06,540
a speculative unit

245
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:09,240
is Treading Water it can service its

246
00:10:06,540 --> 00:10:12,420
interest payments with its own cash

247
00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,640
flows but if principal comes due then

248
00:10:12,420 --> 00:10:17,100
those organizations have to take on more

249
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,480
debt to cover the principle on their

250
00:10:17,100 --> 00:10:21,480
last debt

251
00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:25,019
finally a Ponzi unit named after the

252
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:27,420
famous Ponzi scheme is an organization

253
00:10:25,019 --> 00:10:29,940
or individual for that matter that's

254
00:10:27,420 --> 00:10:32,459
unable to service debt obligations with

255
00:10:29,940 --> 00:10:34,500
their own cash flows and these entities

256
00:10:32,459 --> 00:10:37,440
in the case of financial leverage have

257
00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:40,680
to resort to selling Assets Now like I

258
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:43,740
said you need assets to earn revenue and

259
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:46,320
to make profits so this is extremely

260
00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:48,180
problematic and a Ponzi unit is a highly

261
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,940
distressed organization that is likely

262
00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:53,399
to not be around for long

263
00:10:50,940 --> 00:10:55,440
in periods of economic Prosperity hedge

264
00:10:53,399 --> 00:10:57,600
units predominate so

265
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,519
most organizations are financially

266
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,800
healthy and

267
00:10:59,519 --> 00:11:04,260
they also see a lot of gains from taking

268
00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,959
on upside risk

269
00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:09,240
market prices and conditions then adjust

270
00:11:06,959 --> 00:11:11,519
to reflect the behavior of the most

271
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,200
risk-taking participants

272
00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:13,800
so

273
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,320
um

274
00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:19,200
there are a couple examples of this but

275
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:22,140
um you can think of it as the mortgage

276
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:25,019
crisis for example that um

277
00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:27,300
that in the beginning companies started

278
00:11:25,019 --> 00:11:29,700
investing in these mortgage-based

279
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:33,240
derivatives so bundled up mortgages

280
00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:36,660
bundled up subprime mortgages and at

281
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:39,200
first companies got profits from that at

282
00:11:36,660 --> 00:11:42,060
first they did well and

283
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:45,200
then things changed a little bit

284
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:48,120
so this is where we say that

285
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:50,279
as market conditions change all Market

286
00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,800
participants are structurally forced to

287
00:11:50,279 --> 00:11:55,260
adopt the risk profile of the least

288
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:57,839
risk-averse Market participants

289
00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:59,640
Now by structurally forced I mean that

290
00:11:57,839 --> 00:12:01,320
their continued ability to participate

291
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,140
in the market depends on taking

292
00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:06,839
additional risk to opt out of that risk

293
00:12:04,140 --> 00:12:08,399
is to opt out of that market but what

294
00:12:06,839 --> 00:12:12,060
happens next

295
00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:14,040
well over time demand begins to level

296
00:12:12,060 --> 00:12:15,500
off

297
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,700
you can't

298
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:20,459
you can't grow this can be

299
00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:23,339
mathematically shown you can't grow at a

300
00:12:20,459 --> 00:12:25,740
higher rate than

301
00:12:23,339 --> 00:12:27,360
um the population eventually you'll get

302
00:12:25,740 --> 00:12:29,339
to a point where the market is saturated

303
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,959
everyone who needs your product has it

304
00:12:29,339 --> 00:12:33,600
and

305
00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:36,779
um the only way you can get more more

306
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:39,120
customers is by more being born

307
00:12:36,779 --> 00:12:41,579
um cash flow in this case is not as easy

308
00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:44,639
to come by and Returns on risk get lower

309
00:12:41,579 --> 00:12:46,500
because your growth is simply Limited at

310
00:12:44,639 --> 00:12:48,180
this point regardless of how much risk

311
00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:52,440
you take on

312
00:12:48,180 --> 00:12:55,620
so speculative units begin to come out

313
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,899
as some hedge units take on more debt to

314
00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:59,940
where they're not able to service that

315
00:12:57,899 --> 00:13:01,620
principle anymore

316
00:12:59,940 --> 00:13:03,240
and the cycle continues because

317
00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:06,180
speculative units are still under

318
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:09,600
pressure to take on more risk and

319
00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:12,000
eventually they are unable to service

320
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:14,220
principal payments or sorry their unable

321
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:17,040
to service any of their debt payments

322
00:13:14,220 --> 00:13:18,620
and become Ponzi units

323
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,720
so

324
00:13:18,620 --> 00:13:24,060
Mass failure of Ponzi units destabilizes

325
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,500
the macro economy so like those Banks I

326
00:13:24,060 --> 00:13:28,680
was talking about

327
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:32,120
when those mortgages went bad it crashed

328
00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,120
the economy worldwide

329
00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:38,519
so how does technical leverage fit into

330
00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:41,399
this technical leverage represents risk

331
00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:43,800
as well when you have a lot of tech debt

332
00:13:41,399 --> 00:13:46,560
you will have systems that are difficult

333
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,720
to reason about inadequate test coverage

334
00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:50,760
means that the bugs that are introduced

335
00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,920
because of this may not be caught

336
00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,519
quickly or at all

337
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,019
um

338
00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:57,300
there's

339
00:13:55,019 --> 00:13:59,940
a lack of documentation that makes it

340
00:13:57,300 --> 00:14:02,160
really hard for new people to learn

341
00:13:59,940 --> 00:14:06,420
about the code base and the result can

342
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:08,940
be that knowledge gets siled into one or

343
00:14:06,420 --> 00:14:10,560
two individuals one sign that this is

344
00:14:08,940 --> 00:14:13,079
happening especially in a small company

345
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:16,019
is when one engineer is hailed as a

346
00:14:13,079 --> 00:14:19,800
genius who's above everyone else that

347
00:14:16,019 --> 00:14:20,760
person is usually the knowledge silo

348
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,980
um

349
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:26,220
so why do organizations take on Tech

350
00:14:22,980 --> 00:14:28,500
debt well some level of tech debt like

351
00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:32,279
other kinds of Leverage can be healthy

352
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:34,139
it can enable you to deliver features

353
00:14:32,279 --> 00:14:37,500
and so it's not about eliminating Tech

354
00:14:34,139 --> 00:14:39,180
debt it's about finding that balance

355
00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,180
there are other reasons that aren't so

356
00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:43,880
good though

357
00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:46,560
VCS and other investors

358
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,519
the cleaning up Tech debt is not visible

359
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:51,120
to them

360
00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:51,899
so they don't understand the value of it

361
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,300
um

362
00:14:51,899 --> 00:14:56,160
in the meantime as the company

363
00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:58,019
takes on more and more Tech debt and

364
00:14:56,160 --> 00:15:00,899
this is working in the beginning and

365
00:14:58,019 --> 00:15:03,120
that risk is going up but so are profits

366
00:15:00,899 --> 00:15:05,639
the investors are like

367
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,839
this is great let's do more of this why

368
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,000
not

369
00:15:06,839 --> 00:15:11,399
but

370
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,019
um it doesn't work like that

371
00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:15,000
it's not reasonable to make the

372
00:15:13,019 --> 00:15:17,459
assumption that market trends will

373
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:19,860
continue on the same trajectory forever

374
00:15:17,459 --> 00:15:22,160
what works in the past might not work in

375
00:15:19,860 --> 00:15:22,160
the future

376
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:27,660
so I want to talk about Minsky's

377
00:15:25,380 --> 00:15:30,060
instability hypothesis as it applies to

378
00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:33,120
technical leverage how do you translate

379
00:15:30,060 --> 00:15:35,760
these types of economic actors

380
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:39,180
as it pertains to Tech

381
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:41,760
so I Define a hedge unit as a

382
00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:43,980
participant an organization that has the

383
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,320
staff and resources to clean up its

384
00:15:43,980 --> 00:15:49,139
existing Tech debt again it may or may

385
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:53,100
not do that but it's able to

386
00:15:49,139 --> 00:15:55,440
a speculative unit is one that Treads

387
00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:57,959
water it's able to maintain its Tech

388
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,940
debt but not reduce it that could mean

389
00:15:57,959 --> 00:16:02,839
that it shuffles it around it cleans up

390
00:15:59,940 --> 00:16:06,060
some adding other elsewhere

391
00:16:02,839 --> 00:16:07,920
but it's ultimately staying at the same

392
00:16:06,060 --> 00:16:12,000
amount

393
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,620
now these speculative units again as

394
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,540
they take on more Tech debt if that's

395
00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:16,500
what they choose to do

396
00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:19,019
um

397
00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:21,300
they get into this ever increasing cycle

398
00:16:19,019 --> 00:16:25,440
and eventually they don't have the staff

399
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:27,720
for resources to even tread water

400
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,320
um adding features takes too long there

401
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:33,019
are too many fires to put out and Tech

402
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:35,699
debt increases

403
00:16:33,019 --> 00:16:38,579
eventually these organizations can fail

404
00:16:35,699 --> 00:16:40,620
because of the lack of flexibility that

405
00:16:38,579 --> 00:16:43,079
comes with having that much Tech debt

406
00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:46,079
and the impact on the economy can vary

407
00:16:43,079 --> 00:16:48,420
it can be negligible if it's a small

408
00:16:46,079 --> 00:16:49,259
organization that maybe doesn't

409
00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:51,180
um

410
00:16:49,259 --> 00:16:53,459
the movie doesn't employ that many

411
00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:56,279
people or doesn't make a product that's

412
00:16:53,459 --> 00:16:58,079
critically important on the other hand

413
00:16:56,279 --> 00:17:00,300
if it's a large organization that

414
00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:02,100
employs a lot of people these kind of

415
00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:04,620
failures can have a large impact

416
00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:06,839
especially if there are multiple

417
00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:08,579
failures going on at a time you know if

418
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:10,740
many businesses are going through the

419
00:17:08,579 --> 00:17:13,559
same thing now

420
00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:15,600
the thing I want to emphasize is that

421
00:17:13,559 --> 00:17:17,520
organizations know that they're getting

422
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,299
into this

423
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,240
um

424
00:17:18,299 --> 00:17:22,620
so organizations that are taking on Tech

425
00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,079
debt in this way

426
00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:27,600
they may know that taking that risk will

427
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,799
not benefit them but you can't win a

428
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,460
game you're not playing and they're

429
00:17:28,799 --> 00:17:34,559
between a rock and a hard place so they

430
00:17:32,460 --> 00:17:37,100
take on that Tech debt to attempt to

431
00:17:34,559 --> 00:17:40,500
stay in the game

432
00:17:37,100 --> 00:17:42,900
so to summarize there are a lot of

433
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,760
benefits to taking risks during periods

434
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,559
of economic prosperity

435
00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:48,140
but you never know when those periods

436
00:17:46,559 --> 00:17:51,660
will end

437
00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:54,600
and so as organizations gain an

438
00:17:51,660 --> 00:17:57,539
advantage and competitors are forced to

439
00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:58,919
take on more Tech debt to keep up

440
00:17:57,539 --> 00:18:01,200
um

441
00:17:58,919 --> 00:18:03,299
not all organizations can sustain that

442
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:06,059
level of risk and

443
00:18:03,299 --> 00:18:08,700
Mass failure of

444
00:18:06,059 --> 00:18:10,980
um of any kind of industry

445
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,900
can have a significant impact on the

446
00:18:10,980 --> 00:18:15,240
macro economy

447
00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:17,520
so what's the solution well

448
00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,640
unfortunately there's a reason they call

449
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:23,580
it the Dismal science

450
00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:25,500
as you may have surmised individual

451
00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:27,660
Market participants whether individuals

452
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,380
or organizations

453
00:18:27,660 --> 00:18:31,679
um

454
00:18:28,380 --> 00:18:35,760
have a limited ability to change things

455
00:18:31,679 --> 00:18:37,860
one thing that will be really useful is

456
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,860
Bridging the communications Gap with

457
00:18:37,860 --> 00:18:43,860
investors developing the skills to

458
00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:47,220
explain engineering Concepts in terms

459
00:18:43,860 --> 00:18:49,559
that investors can understand and to

460
00:18:47,220 --> 00:18:52,320
help them understand that tempering

461
00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:56,100
short-term gains is necessary if you

462
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:57,559
want to create sustainable growth

463
00:18:56,100 --> 00:19:00,900
finally

464
00:18:57,559 --> 00:19:03,780
worker solidarity we're professionals

465
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:05,280
here and sticking together to insist on

466
00:19:03,780 --> 00:19:07,260
the Integrity of our profession is

467
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:10,260
something that we should be doing in

468
00:19:07,260 --> 00:19:13,380
this and a lot of other cases

469
00:19:10,260 --> 00:19:15,840
that no the business can't just tell us

470
00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:17,940
to do anything and we'll do it as a

471
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,860
professional we I take pride in my work

472
00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:22,200
I'm not going to

473
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:24,660
I'm not going to do that and if we stand

474
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,280
together on that then that can change

475
00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:28,679
some of the worst Tendencies of our

476
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,240
organizations

477
00:19:28,679 --> 00:19:33,059
so

478
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:36,419
ugh how did that happen oh the

479
00:19:33,059 --> 00:19:40,679
conclusion oh I'm sorry I got lost

480
00:19:36,419 --> 00:19:43,200
um all right so yeah so we need to focus

481
00:19:40,679 --> 00:19:46,200
on standing together as professionals to

482
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,120
insist on the quality of our work and

483
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,220
the type of systems we'd like to work on

484
00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:51,150
in the Here and Now

485
00:19:50,220 --> 00:20:03,179
thank you

486
00:19:51,150 --> 00:20:05,820
[Applause]

487
00:20:03,179 --> 00:20:08,039
thank you very much Dana for that uh

488
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:10,460
information I'll be sure to leverage it

489
00:20:08,039 --> 00:20:10,460
in future

490
00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:15,720
now we do have time for a few questions

491
00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:17,580
so if you are in the audience and would

492
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,320
like us to send you a microphone so you

493
00:20:17,580 --> 00:20:20,160
can say your question please raise your

494
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,280
hand

495
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:25,919
and if you are in the audience or not in

496
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:28,440
the audience or in the online audience

497
00:20:25,919 --> 00:20:30,720
and would like to ask a question please

498
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,179
um post it in the Discord and I'll raise

499
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:36,120
it out read it out on your behalf we

500
00:20:33,179 --> 00:20:38,760
have our first question thanks uh how do

501
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:42,480
you imagine the the failure looking like

502
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,799
because Tech debt isn't like uh monetary

503
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,740
that you're not going to get a margin

504
00:20:43,799 --> 00:20:49,260
call right Tech debt so what does

505
00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:51,720
failure look like and have we seen it

506
00:20:49,260 --> 00:20:52,620
before in this context well you could

507
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,299
argue

508
00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:57,539
clinical debt is actually a form of

509
00:20:54,299 --> 00:20:58,919
operating leverage that would end so

510
00:20:57,539 --> 00:21:00,780
meaning that

511
00:20:58,919 --> 00:21:04,500
um that you're investing in a system

512
00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:06,120
that does a particular thing and that

513
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:08,039
may not be what you need to do in the

514
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:10,020
future you may need to either extend it

515
00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:13,260
or you may need to Pivot and change

516
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:14,940
directions and organizations that have

517
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:16,860
excessive Tech data and I've worked at

518
00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:18,260
organizations like this

519
00:21:16,860 --> 00:21:21,360
um

520
00:21:18,260 --> 00:21:23,160
are at high risk if they don't have the

521
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:26,340
flexibility to respond to market

522
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:28,320
conditions so what it would look like is

523
00:21:26,340 --> 00:21:31,380
it would look much like the failure of

524
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:33,600
an organization that that had invested

525
00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:36,600
in assets that didn't end up being

526
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:39,659
useful for its business purpose

527
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,580
um it they'll you know so it's not as

528
00:21:39,659 --> 00:21:43,140
it's not quite as obvious it's not quite

529
00:21:41,580 --> 00:21:44,940
as you know it's not published in an

530
00:21:43,140 --> 00:21:48,179
annual report like

531
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:50,460
um well cap operating leverage would be

532
00:21:48,179 --> 00:21:52,080
if you knew how to look but

533
00:21:50,460 --> 00:21:55,080
um the

534
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:57,539
but yeah it looks like the organization

535
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,039
just kind of getting less and less

536
00:21:57,539 --> 00:22:01,559
flexible

537
00:21:59,039 --> 00:22:04,280
um and less and less able to respond to

538
00:22:01,559 --> 00:22:04,280
customer needs

539
00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:09,480
all right we have a question from the

540
00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:11,600
Discord and while I'm reading this out

541
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,700
we have the next question from over here

542
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,320
are there any moves on economic media to

543
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,700
cover Tech debt when talking about

544
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,740
companies

545
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:22,500
to tell you the truth this is the first

546
00:22:19,740 --> 00:22:26,039
time ever seen any of this tied together

547
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:28,020
and I kind of developed this talk as I

548
00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,539
was working at my last company which was

549
00:22:28,020 --> 00:22:32,760
a startup and thinking about the tech

550
00:22:30,539 --> 00:22:34,679
debt that we took on

551
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,340
um sorry could you repeat the question I

552
00:22:34,679 --> 00:22:37,340
didn't remember

553
00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:42,539
uh sure uh are there any moves on

554
00:22:40,559 --> 00:22:44,400
economic media to cover Tech debt when

555
00:22:42,539 --> 00:22:48,020
yeah about companies yeah yeah okay yeah

556
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,020
no so as far as I know

557
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,340
in any kind of coverage of that or any

558
00:22:51,299 --> 00:22:55,679
kind of analysis of that because

559
00:22:53,340 --> 00:22:57,419
economists aren't particularly technical

560
00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:59,580
a lot of the time

561
00:22:57,419 --> 00:23:01,620
um so there's not a lot of crossover I

562
00:22:59,580 --> 00:23:05,840
think

563
00:23:01,620 --> 00:23:05,840
all right question over here

564
00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:11,520
hello

565
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:15,600
um talking back to um Redbox and um

566
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:17,880
government stimulus is there an

567
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,980
equivalent in your analogy of technical

568
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,080
debt when technical debt gets out of

569
00:23:19,980 --> 00:23:23,940
hand is there an equivalent kind of

570
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:27,299
government stimulus

571
00:23:23,940 --> 00:23:29,520
mechanism yeah I think so because

572
00:23:27,299 --> 00:23:31,919
um some a stimulus measure like that

573
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,140
would function to

574
00:23:31,919 --> 00:23:36,360
furnish these organizations with the

575
00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:39,600
resources that they need to hire staff

576
00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:42,299
and devote funds to cleaning up their

577
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,980
ticket so that is how that would kind of

578
00:23:42,299 --> 00:23:46,460
apply to this situation does that answer

579
00:23:43,980 --> 00:23:46,460
your question

580
00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:49,980
I put this in the Discord but I'll just

581
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,900
ask it now anyway

582
00:23:49,980 --> 00:23:54,780
um following on from the other question

583
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:57,059
about like talking about tech debt like

584
00:23:54,780 --> 00:23:58,380
how does one go around quantifying it

585
00:23:57,059 --> 00:24:00,419
because if you can't measure it if you

586
00:23:58,380 --> 00:24:02,220
can't track it

587
00:24:00,419 --> 00:24:02,880
that's a great question

588
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:04,440
um

589
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,539
and

590
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,580
it is a huge Challenge and to tell you

591
00:24:06,539 --> 00:24:10,740
the truth it's not something I had

592
00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:12,900
extensively looked into for that for

593
00:24:10,740 --> 00:24:14,400
this talk but um you're absolutely right

594
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:18,179
it's a

595
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:20,940
it's a challenge and I think the first

596
00:24:18,179 --> 00:24:22,799
thing is to do an audit to categorize

597
00:24:20,940 --> 00:24:24,200
the areas in which you have Tech debt

598
00:24:22,799 --> 00:24:27,419
because like I said it can be

599
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:31,200
unmaintained undocumented untested code

600
00:24:27,419 --> 00:24:33,840
so which of in which of those areas do

601
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,220
you have deficiencies probably more than

602
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,880
one

603
00:24:35,220 --> 00:24:38,520
um

604
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,559
and then identifying where those

605
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,940
deficiencies are I actually have another

606
00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:45,900
talk that's about maintaining

607
00:24:41,940 --> 00:24:49,140
documentation that has that goes into

608
00:24:45,900 --> 00:24:53,600
how to take care of that aspect of it

609
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:53,600
but um but you're right it's a challenge

610
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,900
all right question over here thanks very

611
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,340
much for your presentation it was pretty

612
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:00,840
pretty interesting

613
00:24:59,340 --> 00:25:02,640
um I was curious you mentioned that

614
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,320
you've had this experience with startups

615
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,059
when do you think a startup should worry

616
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,100
about take debt and I remember that

617
00:25:06,059 --> 00:25:09,419
famous quote about this founder of

618
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:11,580
LinkedIn that said that you if you know

619
00:25:09,419 --> 00:25:14,520
if you're not embarrassed by your first

620
00:25:11,580 --> 00:25:16,080
product yeah you launched too late I

621
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,460
guess I translate that if you don't

622
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,159
launch your product with a lot of tech

623
00:25:17,460 --> 00:25:21,480
debt you launched too late so when do

624
00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:23,880
you think is the ideal time for a

625
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,620
startup to really worry about this Tech

626
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,779
depth otherwise you could be just

627
00:25:25,620 --> 00:25:29,340
running on the risk of just launching

628
00:25:27,779 --> 00:25:30,960
something that has no tech there but the

629
00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:33,120
market is not really interesting one and

630
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,860
that's exactly why I say that it's

631
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,059
possible to have a healthy amount of

632
00:25:34,860 --> 00:25:39,299
tech debt

633
00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:42,000
um you don't need to reduce It To None

634
00:25:39,299 --> 00:25:43,980
So

635
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,900
a lot of times you know that may mean

636
00:25:43,980 --> 00:25:47,760
that a startup a startup is inherently a

637
00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:51,600
higher risk Enterprise

638
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,820
um and so startups will have to take on

639
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,559
more risk because they're starting from

640
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:58,020
nothing so

641
00:25:55,559 --> 00:26:00,240
um so that's a good point and it's

642
00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:03,240
accurate that that that's just going to

643
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:05,279
be the case with the startup

644
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,380
question from here um is there a link

645
00:26:05,279 --> 00:26:08,880
kind of between hyper specialization and

646
00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:10,799
Tech debt because it feels to me one of

647
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,059
the issues with this Tech Deck is that

648
00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:13,500
it's hard to kind of capture new

649
00:26:12,059 --> 00:26:16,260
audience or to move on with the market

650
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:17,760
does um kind of hyper specializing in

651
00:26:16,260 --> 00:26:19,679
working in a very specific Niche

652
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,600
audience kind of contribute more to this

653
00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:22,380
is there a link or

654
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,779
um

655
00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:26,880
I'm not totally sure I fully understand

656
00:26:24,779 --> 00:26:28,440
the question but let me let me take a

657
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,820
stab at it um

658
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,860
I think

659
00:26:29,820 --> 00:26:33,659
one one way that hyper specialization

660
00:26:31,860 --> 00:26:35,279
does impact Tech debt is that most

661
00:26:33,659 --> 00:26:38,520
people at some point have to work

662
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:40,380
outside their area of specialization and

663
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:44,039
you know we all have to do things that

664
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:46,020
we're not as good at and so that can

665
00:26:44,039 --> 00:26:49,320
lead to Tech debt you know I'm a ruby

666
00:26:46,020 --> 00:26:51,419
developer primarily and I see a lot of

667
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:55,080
bad Ruby that's written by people who

668
00:26:51,419 --> 00:26:57,720
aren't really Ruby developers and so it

669
00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,740
can definitely contribute to the problem

670
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:04,440
but I feel like robust code reviews and

671
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:07,100
and mentorship can be really helpful to

672
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,100
reduce that

673
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:14,700
all right I have a question of my own

674
00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:16,140
um you talked about worker solidarity do

675
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:18,659
you see that as being

676
00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:20,700
more of a role for like formal

677
00:27:18,659 --> 00:27:22,620
industry-wide organizations such as

678
00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:24,900
unions or as sort of more of the

679
00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:26,400
informal individual workplace a small

680
00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:28,200
group talking to their own manager I

681
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,960
think

682
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:33,179
um and you know one thing that I think

683
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,179
about a lot is that um

684
00:27:33,179 --> 00:27:37,919
a lot of technical organizations

685
00:27:36,179 --> 00:27:38,940
oh I'm losing my train thought again I'm

686
00:27:37,919 --> 00:27:40,559
sorry

687
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:43,500
um

688
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:45,480
can you sorry yeah just the just the the

689
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:47,820
role of formal organizations such as

690
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,020
unions versus formal networks yeah and

691
00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:50,880
so one thing I've thought about a lot

692
00:27:49,020 --> 00:27:53,700
you know I I took some classes in

693
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:56,520
mechanical engineering and it was

694
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:58,380
fascinating to me that the entire first

695
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,900
semester of classes about mechanical

696
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:02,760
engineering were devoted to engineering

697
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:05,760
disasters brought on by unethical

698
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:08,279
behavior on the part of Engineers

699
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,380
um other fields of engineering have

700
00:28:08,279 --> 00:28:12,179
professional bodies that hold Engineers

701
00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:13,919
accountable for the results of their

702
00:28:12,179 --> 00:28:16,140
actions even if those results aren't

703
00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:18,720
intended and I think that that's

704
00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:20,580
actually sorely needed in engineer in a

705
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,220
software engineering

706
00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:25,440
um that it would be good to have a

707
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:26,940
professional body you know that so that

708
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,440
we don't have to put ourselves on the

709
00:28:26,940 --> 00:28:30,779
line and go to our managers and be like

710
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,580
I personally will not do this it would

711
00:28:30,779 --> 00:28:34,320
be helpful to have a professional body

712
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:37,220
that will say this is not what software

713
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,220
Engineers do

714
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:43,260
thank you very much Dana we have the

715
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:46,880
traditional speaker's gift and a round

716
00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:46,880
of applause thank you

717
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,339
[Music]

718
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,339
[Applause]